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	<title>Comments on: Ted and Gayle Haggard and the &#8220;Abuse Excuse&#8221;</title>
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	<description>Women, Children, Sex, Violence: Outcry, Analysis, Discussion</description>
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		<title>By: rcanaff</title>
		<link>http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/02/ted-and-gayle-haggard-and-the-abuse-excuse/comment-page-1/#comment-20</link>
		<dc:creator>rcanaff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 07:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rogercanaff.com/site/?p=90#comment-20</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comments, Catherine.  I honestly don&#039;t know how they&#039;ll do, and God knows I wish no ill on Haggard&#039;s children.  In all fairness, most Evangelicals I know separate the sin from the sinner and go about things that way.  I don&#039;t want to speak for the Evangelical movement, but it seems that, in general, the belief is that homosexuality is a &quot;condition&quot; that- even if innate- must simply be borne, like any other condition that interferes with God&#039;s plan for romantic love, procreation, and traditional marriage. 

It&#039;s not a sin to be homosexual.  It&#039;s a sin, in their eyes, to act on homosexual impulses, regardless of where they come from.  There are certainly Evangelicals who believe that homosexuality can be &quot;cured&quot; through intense prayer and Bible-based therapy.  This is without any- to my knowledge- serious psychological backing.  But again, in fairness- I know quite a few Evangelical Christians who accept that homosexuality can&#039;t be changed, but still believe that it must be endured.  In other words, gay people, however they came to be, must simply remain celibate, pray for a miracle, or otherwise accept the burden God has given them, as He gives us all burdens to shoulder.  I don&#039;t personally believe that God does this, but that is the view of many Evangelicals I know.  Those folks tend to believe that God moves in ways they do not understand.  I can appreciate this view, but I don&#039;t personally believe that God is that sloppy with His methods or that cruel.  It&#039;s not an easy position for a Christian to take, but my belief is in a basically benevolent God, but one Whose love for us is manifested in ways that we simply will never be able to understand.  In that way I admit to serious Deist tendencies, but I remain Roman Catholic.  The RC Church is the one through which I seem to communicate best with the God I believe in.  I know a ton of Catholics who would disagree, but that&#039;s where I come down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments, Catherine.  I honestly don&#8217;t know how they&#8217;ll do, and God knows I wish no ill on Haggard&#8217;s children.  In all fairness, most Evangelicals I know separate the sin from the sinner and go about things that way.  I don&#8217;t want to speak for the Evangelical movement, but it seems that, in general, the belief is that homosexuality is a &#8220;condition&#8221; that- even if innate- must simply be borne, like any other condition that interferes with God&#8217;s plan for romantic love, procreation, and traditional marriage. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not a sin to be homosexual.  It&#8217;s a sin, in their eyes, to act on homosexual impulses, regardless of where they come from.  There are certainly Evangelicals who believe that homosexuality can be &#8220;cured&#8221; through intense prayer and Bible-based therapy.  This is without any- to my knowledge- serious psychological backing.  But again, in fairness- I know quite a few Evangelical Christians who accept that homosexuality can&#8217;t be changed, but still believe that it must be endured.  In other words, gay people, however they came to be, must simply remain celibate, pray for a miracle, or otherwise accept the burden God has given them, as He gives us all burdens to shoulder.  I don&#8217;t personally believe that God does this, but that is the view of many Evangelicals I know.  Those folks tend to believe that God moves in ways they do not understand.  I can appreciate this view, but I don&#8217;t personally believe that God is that sloppy with His methods or that cruel.  It&#8217;s not an easy position for a Christian to take, but my belief is in a basically benevolent God, but one Whose love for us is manifested in ways that we simply will never be able to understand.  In that way I admit to serious Deist tendencies, but I remain Roman Catholic.  The RC Church is the one through which I seem to communicate best with the God I believe in.  I know a ton of Catholics who would disagree, but that&#8217;s where I come down.</p>
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		<title>By: Catherine</title>
		<link>http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/02/ted-and-gayle-haggard-and-the-abuse-excuse/comment-page-1/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>Catherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 01:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rogercanaff.com/site/?p=90#comment-19</guid>
		<description>The line of the Lord&#039;s Prayer before your quotation, “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil”, is preceded by these lines, &quot;Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…&quot; Trespass, here meaning a violation or sin. It makes me wonder if the unforgiving way Evangelicals deal with gays, lesbians, et cetera dooms Haggard family to remain together to work through their collective demons. How are Ted&#039;s kids going to fair, being party to his infidelity and the unrest that has created?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The line of the Lord&#8217;s Prayer before your quotation, “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil”, is preceded by these lines, &#8220;Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us…&#8221; Trespass, here meaning a violation or sin. It makes me wonder if the unforgiving way Evangelicals deal with gays, lesbians, et cetera dooms Haggard family to remain together to work through their collective demons. How are Ted&#8217;s kids going to fair, being party to his infidelity and the unrest that has created?</p>
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		<title>By: Catherine</title>
		<link>http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/02/ted-and-gayle-haggard-and-the-abuse-excuse/comment-page-1/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>Catherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 23:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rogercanaff.com/site/?p=90#comment-18</guid>
		<description>Listened to the NPR interview &amp; read the excerpt the other day: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123410826

Two things stood out. First, from the interview, Gayle Haggard says, &quot;He was unfaithful to his marriage vows to me and he did lie to me. And so on many levels there was a breakdown,&quot; she said. &quot;There was moral failure in our marriage.&quot; How can a marriage founded on a lie breakdown?  The relationship was degraded from its inception. This speaks to the content of Mr. Haggard, he doesn&#039;t have any truth in his being nor respect for the need for truth. 

In the excerpt from her book, Mrs. Haggard says, 
&quot;I sobbed so loudly that I was sure the children could hear me... and within seconds I felt Ted&#039;s shuddering sobs as well. I didn&#039;t stop to comfort him; I let my tears flow. I needed to cry, because I was terrified.&quot;

What struck me was not only was she trying to share a bed with the spouse that had betrayed her, but her perceived boldness at allowing herself to cry without comforting her husband first. The evangelical woman submits to her husband. In the Danvers Statement, written by the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, men and women should follow gender based roles, derived from Old and New Testament. The Danvers Statement is widely accepted and endorsed by Christian groups. The CBMW is a part of the Nat&#039;l Association of Evangelicals that Ted Haggard resigned as president of. Perhaps Mrs. Haggard has learned when to be strong for her family. I would be interested in knowing if she considers her first book to be, &quot;the glad harmony portrayed in Scripture between the loving, humble leadership of redeemed husbands and the intelligent, willing support of that leadership by redeemed wives&quot;

the CMBW site wasn&#039;t available. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danvers_Statement</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Listened to the NPR interview &amp; read the excerpt the other day: <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123410826" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123410826</a></p>
<p>Two things stood out. First, from the interview, Gayle Haggard says, &#8220;He was unfaithful to his marriage vows to me and he did lie to me. And so on many levels there was a breakdown,&#8221; she said. &#8220;There was moral failure in our marriage.&#8221; How can a marriage founded on a lie breakdown?  The relationship was degraded from its inception. This speaks to the content of Mr. Haggard, he doesn&#8217;t have any truth in his being nor respect for the need for truth. </p>
<p>In the excerpt from her book, Mrs. Haggard says,<br />
&#8220;I sobbed so loudly that I was sure the children could hear me&#8230; and within seconds I felt Ted&#8217;s shuddering sobs as well. I didn&#8217;t stop to comfort him; I let my tears flow. I needed to cry, because I was terrified.&#8221;</p>
<p>What struck me was not only was she trying to share a bed with the spouse that had betrayed her, but her perceived boldness at allowing herself to cry without comforting her husband first. The evangelical woman submits to her husband. In the Danvers Statement, written by the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, men and women should follow gender based roles, derived from Old and New Testament. The Danvers Statement is widely accepted and endorsed by Christian groups. The CBMW is a part of the Nat&#8217;l Association of Evangelicals that Ted Haggard resigned as president of. Perhaps Mrs. Haggard has learned when to be strong for her family. I would be interested in knowing if she considers her first book to be, &#8220;the glad harmony portrayed in Scripture between the loving, humble leadership of redeemed husbands and the intelligent, willing support of that leadership by redeemed wives&#8221;</p>
<p>the CMBW site wasn&#8217;t available. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danvers_Statement" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danvers_Statement</a></p>
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		<title>By: rcanaffmay</title>
		<link>http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/02/ted-and-gayle-haggard-and-the-abuse-excuse/comment-page-1/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>rcanaffmay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rogercanaff.com/site/?p=90#comment-17</guid>
		<description>Hmmm- I&#039;ll work on that- the issue of getting comments back to the poster.  I&#039;m not the most functional with the technical side of this, but I&#039;ve got good support.  Thanks for the suggestion.

And I agree totally re:  from the overflow of the heart goes the mouth.  And another truism about alcohol:  From James McMurty, a folk singer I love:  &quot;Whiskey don&#039;t make liars, it just makes fools.&quot;  If we say it drunk, we may not have meant to say it, but we damn sure meant what we said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm- I&#8217;ll work on that- the issue of getting comments back to the poster.  I&#8217;m not the most functional with the technical side of this, but I&#8217;ve got good support.  Thanks for the suggestion.</p>
<p>And I agree totally re:  from the overflow of the heart goes the mouth.  And another truism about alcohol:  From James McMurty, a folk singer I love:  &#8220;Whiskey don&#8217;t make liars, it just makes fools.&#8221;  If we say it drunk, we may not have meant to say it, but we damn sure meant what we said.</p>
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		<title>By: rcanaff</title>
		<link>http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/02/ted-and-gayle-haggard-and-the-abuse-excuse/comment-page-1/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>rcanaff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rogercanaff.com/site/?p=90#comment-16</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Tam- I&#039;ve been blessed with good teachers, for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Tam- I&#8217;ve been blessed with good teachers, for sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Tamara</title>
		<link>http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/02/ted-and-gayle-haggard-and-the-abuse-excuse/comment-page-1/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Tamara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 18:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rogercanaff.com/site/?p=90#comment-15</guid>
		<description>I am reading your blogs for the first time. Amazing. You are a gifted writer with great wisdom to share.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am reading your blogs for the first time. Amazing. You are a gifted writer with great wisdom to share.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/02/ted-and-gayle-haggard-and-the-abuse-excuse/comment-page-1/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 17:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rogercanaff.com/site/?p=90#comment-14</guid>
		<description>Life has a way of revealing inconsistency in our theology/philosophy.  Ideally we realize that and deal with it before the headlines break out!  
I agree with you that James is an amazing book.  My daughters and I are almost done memorizing the whole book.  One of the beauties of it is its earthiness.  We often feel like our temptation comes from outside of us and a theist could easily push that off on god.  I also love 1 Corinthians 10:13 which tells us that God is in control of our temptation.  (Note: &quot;in control&quot;?&quot;author&quot; which James explicitly tells us.)  The point of 1 Cor 10:13 is that God does not allow us to experience temptation that we cannot resist.  So if we FEEL compelled by nature to do anything we need to believe that we CAN say no to it. 
 Jesus also taught that &quot;it is out of the heart that the mouth speaks.&quot;  Something that Mel Gibson should come to grips with.  What is so difficult about your profession is that none of us wants to believe that we have it within us to hurt a child.  But my anthropology says that we all have the potential to be the worst that is imaginable.  The only thing that separates me from the nastiest pedophile is the grace of God.
I appreciate you sharing these things.  I come away with confirmation that humanity as a whole is fatally flawed but far from being discouraged I am amazed that God has made a way to fix us through His grace.
Keep up the good work of protecting the helpless from the predators!
[BTW, on an administrative note: it would be nice if follow-up comments could be emailed to the commenter.  I don&#039;t really know how to do that of course!  But it would be nice ;))]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Life has a way of revealing inconsistency in our theology/philosophy.  Ideally we realize that and deal with it before the headlines break out!<br />
I agree with you that James is an amazing book.  My daughters and I are almost done memorizing the whole book.  One of the beauties of it is its earthiness.  We often feel like our temptation comes from outside of us and a theist could easily push that off on god.  I also love 1 Corinthians 10:13 which tells us that God is in control of our temptation.  (Note: &#8220;in control&#8221;?&#8221;author&#8221; which James explicitly tells us.)  The point of 1 Cor 10:13 is that God does not allow us to experience temptation that we cannot resist.  So if we FEEL compelled by nature to do anything we need to believe that we CAN say no to it.<br />
 Jesus also taught that &#8220;it is out of the heart that the mouth speaks.&#8221;  Something that Mel Gibson should come to grips with.  What is so difficult about your profession is that none of us wants to believe that we have it within us to hurt a child.  But my anthropology says that we all have the potential to be the worst that is imaginable.  The only thing that separates me from the nastiest pedophile is the grace of God.<br />
I appreciate you sharing these things.  I come away with confirmation that humanity as a whole is fatally flawed but far from being discouraged I am amazed that God has made a way to fix us through His grace.<br />
Keep up the good work of protecting the helpless from the predators!<br />
[BTW, on an administrative note: it would be nice if follow-up comments could be emailed to the commenter.  I don't really know how to do that of course!  But it would be nice <img src='http://rogercanaff.com/site/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> )]</p>
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		<title>By: rcanaff</title>
		<link>http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/02/ted-and-gayle-haggard-and-the-abuse-excuse/comment-page-1/#comment-12</link>
		<dc:creator>rcanaff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 08:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rogercanaff.com/site/?p=90#comment-12</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Jon, for your comment and insight.  And here&#039;s a blanket statement if there ever was one:  I don&#039;t claim to have a monopoly on the truth about God, our hearts, our psychological make-up or anything else.  I&#039;m a trial lawyer with a blog, that&#039;s it.  My opinions can come off strongly, but I&#039;ll be the first to acknowledge that I don&#039;t claim enduring wisdom on any of this stuff.

I agree with your assessment about temptation.  Understanding that we approach it from slightly different angles, as you are more of a Bible Christian than I am, I still think your assessment from James (one of the most eloquent, lovely and concise books in the NT, in my humble opinion) is apparent in every day life.  To explain, it is very similar to how we (those of us who consume alcohol, anyway) function when our inhibitions are lowered.  Brief explanation:

A brilliant PhD (sex offender expert among other things) I work with named Dr. Nikki Valliere taught me that inhibitions do not CAUSE heretofore non-existent desires within us.  Rather, they simply allow them to surface and manifest as behavior.  We get what she calls &quot;alcohol myopia&quot; which is a sublime term; simply put, the more we drink, the less we care about what others around us will think about our behavior.  So the myth about the drunk guy who hooks up with a girl whom he&#039;d never &lt;em&gt;want&lt;/em&gt; to kiss while sober, is just that- a myth. &quot;The girls all get prettier at closin&#039; time&quot;, or so said Mickey Gilley from my long ago childhood.  Yes, but it reality, they just seem &quot;pretty&quot; enough now for us drunk guys to go after because we no longer care about how we might be judged by others or what consequence there might be.  But the desire to kiss whomever- for whatever reckless and passing hormonal reason there is- was always there.  Just suppressed.  Obviously, the same goes for women who make the same judgment calls when judgment goes out the window.  

For what it&#039;s worth, one of the most compelling things I find about Jesus&#039; teaching from the Gospel (as I understand it, anyway) is His command to the disciples about how to pray (The Lord&#039;s Prayer, of course). He didn&#039;t say &quot;make us strong enough to resist temptation.&quot;  Instead, He said &quot;lead us not into temptation.&quot;  The lawyer in me greatly respects Him for choosing His words carefully, and I assume He meant them.  We are tempted by the outside world- but those things inflame what&#039;s already in us.  Hence the Rabbi&#039;s admonition to avoid those things for our own good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Jon, for your comment and insight.  And here&#8217;s a blanket statement if there ever was one:  I don&#8217;t claim to have a monopoly on the truth about God, our hearts, our psychological make-up or anything else.  I&#8217;m a trial lawyer with a blog, that&#8217;s it.  My opinions can come off strongly, but I&#8217;ll be the first to acknowledge that I don&#8217;t claim enduring wisdom on any of this stuff.</p>
<p>I agree with your assessment about temptation.  Understanding that we approach it from slightly different angles, as you are more of a Bible Christian than I am, I still think your assessment from James (one of the most eloquent, lovely and concise books in the NT, in my humble opinion) is apparent in every day life.  To explain, it is very similar to how we (those of us who consume alcohol, anyway) function when our inhibitions are lowered.  Brief explanation:</p>
<p>A brilliant PhD (sex offender expert among other things) I work with named Dr. Nikki Valliere taught me that inhibitions do not CAUSE heretofore non-existent desires within us.  Rather, they simply allow them to surface and manifest as behavior.  We get what she calls &#8220;alcohol myopia&#8221; which is a sublime term; simply put, the more we drink, the less we care about what others around us will think about our behavior.  So the myth about the drunk guy who hooks up with a girl whom he&#8217;d never <em>want</em> to kiss while sober, is just that- a myth. &#8220;The girls all get prettier at closin&#8217; time&#8221;, or so said Mickey Gilley from my long ago childhood.  Yes, but it reality, they just seem &#8220;pretty&#8221; enough now for us drunk guys to go after because we no longer care about how we might be judged by others or what consequence there might be.  But the desire to kiss whomever- for whatever reckless and passing hormonal reason there is- was always there.  Just suppressed.  Obviously, the same goes for women who make the same judgment calls when judgment goes out the window.  </p>
<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, one of the most compelling things I find about Jesus&#8217; teaching from the Gospel (as I understand it, anyway) is His command to the disciples about how to pray (The Lord&#8217;s Prayer, of course). He didn&#8217;t say &#8220;make us strong enough to resist temptation.&#8221;  Instead, He said &#8220;lead us not into temptation.&#8221;  The lawyer in me greatly respects Him for choosing His words carefully, and I assume He meant them.  We are tempted by the outside world- but those things inflame what&#8217;s already in us.  Hence the Rabbi&#8217;s admonition to avoid those things for our own good.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://rogercanaff.com/site/2010/02/ted-and-gayle-haggard-and-the-abuse-excuse/comment-page-1/#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rogercanaff.com/site/?p=90#comment-11</guid>
		<description>I would inject that Ted had a lot of problems with his identification as an evangelical even before this junk broke out.  Not least among those problems is the evangelical/biblical view of sin.  The Epistle of James tells us in chapter 1 how temptation functions.  We are &quot;drawn away and enticed by [our] own lust.&quot;  To talk about temptation coming from anywhere outside of us is simply blame shifting.  Do emotional scars and situations and society and culture and a hundred other things contribute to our temptation?  Of course they do.  But the root is that we cannot be tempted to do anything that is not already within our hearts to do and Ted Haggard should simply say that.
Thanks, Roger for your insight on predators. It is important for us as parents to be aware of these things and help our children through the struggles of adolescence so that they do not feel marginalized, isolated and victimized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would inject that Ted had a lot of problems with his identification as an evangelical even before this junk broke out.  Not least among those problems is the evangelical/biblical view of sin.  The Epistle of James tells us in chapter 1 how temptation functions.  We are &#8220;drawn away and enticed by [our] own lust.&#8221;  To talk about temptation coming from anywhere outside of us is simply blame shifting.  Do emotional scars and situations and society and culture and a hundred other things contribute to our temptation?  Of course they do.  But the root is that we cannot be tempted to do anything that is not already within our hearts to do and Ted Haggard should simply say that.<br />
Thanks, Roger for your insight on predators. It is important for us as parents to be aware of these things and help our children through the struggles of adolescence so that they do not feel marginalized, isolated and victimized.</p>
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